method_air

Ok

Agreed CapeBretonDadBod...this guy who goes by the name GainTrain just sent me a private message exposing his genitalia...definitely a step too far.

Stop already, little man. No offense, I'm into women.

Not at all, I don't eat enough nor take enough gear to get massive. Plus, I like my blood pressure in a normal range. That said, my waist is tiny and my shoulders are extremely wide.

Sure, upload a photo measuring your shoulder width with a tape measure and I'll do the same. Why not.

Hmm...no thanks. You should keep your G4P photos to yourself, and not embarrass yourself any further. Dude, you're small. Not that it matters, but I'm pretty sure I've heavier and wider than you are, even on TRT level doses (220lbs+). But good luck, I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I merely wanted to point out factual evidence regarding crashed estrogen etc, which refuted some of the asinine claims that you made.

Derek from mpmd reiterates similar mechanisms described by Fizzyx: When you take 19-nor testosterone, you've shut down endogenous testosterone production, but the by product effect of this is, you've shut down your DHT (because you have no testosterone being produced), in addition, you have no aromatization from testosterone to estrogen. So, without this pathway being fulfilled of testosterone to estrogen conversion, you effectively crush your endogenous sex hormones that are necessary for mediating many physiological functions (ie 'crashed estrogen'). // end of quote Thus, Derek considered a DECA only cycle, with endogenous estrogen. 900mg test? A lot of people would say you were natural, or on a minimal trt dose. 6"1, 16% bf:

No, the argument is that: DHT derivatives COULD unhealthily lower estrogenic activity, NOT WILL (because it varies person to person, and may be dose dependent). As stated, I experienced the same thing Matt Porter reported, about two weeks after starting legit Syn Primo E, at about 400mg wk, test e 300 mg. I don't have joint issues, but my joints suddenly started feeling like they were run over by a train. Dry and creaky. Stopped the primo and the joint issues immediately starting clearing up. If the test base was 500 mg+, I suspect this issue wouldn't have occurred. Previously, this happened after about .25 mg of arimidex. I don't get gyno, even at higher doses. If I get any sensitivity, I take a little mast prop, and it goes away. If you take DHB without a test base, you likely won't get any estrogen conversion, which is a bad thing (as Dr. Serrano noted in the video). Longer term, I will be daily 'microdosing' with shorter esters, as the research also suggests this may be better for estrogen management, while I continue to avoid all AIs and serms.

That's your call. I would consider the advice of experts like Dr. Serrano, John Meadows, William Llewellyn, Anthony Roberts and Matt Porter (rip) over an anonymous gym bro, with a 3rd grade education, who resorts to name calling.

To clarify any confusion, Anthony Roberts (author of Anabolic Steroids: Ultimate Research Guide) states: To understand why Masteron can be used as an anti-estrogen, first we need to know that it’s derived from DHT. Why is this important? This is important because DHT directly inhibits estrogenic activity on tissues. It is possible that it does this, possibly by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen receptor binding. Either way, it has multiple hypothesized mechanisms of action in some tissues. It has also been hypothesized that DHT actually suppresses estrogen’s effects not by inhibition of synthesis of estrogen receptor, but by (get ready…big words coming up) decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at some point after the actual estrogen receptor binding has occurred. This means, in much simpler terms, that the estrogen gets to the receptor, but just doesn’t do its job (1). This means you can take steroids that convert to estrogen (called aromatizable steroids) and not worry about that estrogen possibly making you retain water, gain fat, or watch "Desperate Housewives." Also, this could mean that the antiestrogenic effect of DHT is mediated by an androgen receptor mediated mechanism. In fact, DHT has been shown to prevent the estrogen-dependent augmentation of the progesterone receptor in human breast cancer cells. And, not to be redundant, but it’s important to remember that virtually all of the anti-estrogens we use to control gyno and water retention are also used to treat breast cancer. So, now we know have observed that androgens are capable of inhibiting both the estrogenic induction and the ongoing stimulation of PRc synthesis, but have no apparent effect upon basal concentrations of this receptor. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) demonstrates a very high degree of inhibition of estrogen in human breast cancer cells. (2). But it’s not just DHT that does this; its metabolites have been shown to inhibit aromatization itself; DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are all potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. In fact, it's so potent at reducing estrogen that transdermal DHT gel applied to the affected area has been used to treat gynocomastia (3). DHT is such a potent anti-estrogen that it been even been used to increase height in children with short stature, and since it’s been determined that this increase is not due to GH-mediated effects, it was strongly suggested that DHT’s anti-estrogenic effects are the mechanism by which it can increase height (4) Of course, I suspect I don’t need to tell you that DHT is structurally incapable or converting to estrogen… But has Masteron actually lived up to my claims for being an anti-estrogen? Yes. From 1968 to 1972, a decent sized study was conducted on Masteron, in a group of premenopausal women with breast cancer. About a third responded well to Masteron (6). This is because of its anti-estrogenic effects, clearly- though it doesn’t perform as well as Arimidex, Letrozole , or Aromasin. If you’re not running huge amounts of aromatizable steroids, this is a very good choice to add into your cycle...if you’re running well under a gram of aromatizable steroids, Masteron will likely be all the anti-estrogen you need. This number comes from my person experience, as well as others I’ve interviewed.

The information shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone capable of fairly trivial research, and cognitive functioning. If you have unhealthily low estrogenic activity (whether excessively blocked at the receptor or otherwise), you can run into side effects. With further respect to AIs and anecodotal evidence, Dr. Serrano states: "This enzyme (aromatase) is completely killed by this drug (AI), and you don't have no conversion, so your joints start hurting, your elbows start hurting, so I rarely use this" Like Serrano suggested, if you are male and prone to growing tits, options beyond primo probably are necessary.

While that is true, it doesn't change the fact that DHT derivatives like Primo etc could unhealthily abruptly lower estrogen for some, to the point where dry, achy joints occur. I have firsthand experience that completely echoed what Matt Porter reported. The only time other time this happened was after the introduction of a tiny amount of arimidex, which was promptly discontinued and never resumed thereafter (without issue). People should develop critical thinking skills so they can make informed decisions, based on the literature, and experience.

Where did I state that DHTs WILL crash estrogen? The premise of the argument clearly passed you by. These facts suggest that large dosages of DHT derivatives like masteron (without a testosterone base) COULD unhealthily lower/crash estrogen, resulting in dry, achy joints etc. This was anecdotally supported by Matt Porter: Others on the other hand, may never experience these issues. While Greg Doucette is entitled to his opinion (albeit admittedly bro-scientific), it does not refute the evidence/facts provided.

Troll status verified. Some run grams of test without an AI, without issue. 'The fool generalizes the particular'.

Instead of resorting to embarrassing, gratuitous displays of anonymous chest thumping...let's see if you can come up with an intelligent, logical rebuttal (with respect to the literature regarding estrogen management with DHTs). Good luck.