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WHAT IS DHB? THE POWERFUL STEROID NO ONE TALKS ABOUT


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1 hour ago, GainTrain said:

you said running dht steroids will crash your estrogen. That’s the argument.

Dht’s will NOT crash your E 

Where did I state that DHTs WILL crash estrogen? 

The premise of the argument clearly passed you by.

Quote

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drostanolone_propionate

Some types of breast cancer cells, expressing estrogen receptors (called ER+ cancers), use estrogen for their growth and dissemination. That is why drugs that block estrogen receptors or decrease their expression on the cell membrane, antiestrogens, could limit the tumor spread and size. Drostanolone propionate has been FDA approved[7] as an antiestrogenic drug for the treatment of breast cancer.

 

These facts suggest that large dosages of DHT derivatives like masteron (without a testosterone base) COULD unhealthily lower/crash estrogen, resulting in dry, achy joints etc.

This was anecdotally supported by Matt Porter:

Quote

"Primo was something that I noticed within two weeks, as far as drying me out, and hurting my joints from lowering my estrogen"

Others on the other hand, may never experience these issues.

While Greg Doucette is entitled to his opinion (albeit admittedly bro-scientific), it does not refute the evidence/facts provided. 

Edited by method_air
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So there's a lot of confusion regarding Masteron and after having looked at it very deeply I can see where a lot of it is coming from.Here is a quote from a particular source, doesn't really matter which one as the same has been said by many. I'll point out where the problems leading to confusion lie.

" Masteron is classified as an anti estrogenic steroid. This is because of the ability of the androgenic-anabolic steroid to resist aromatization. Many androgenic-anabolic steroids get converted to the female sex hormone estrogen. This is called aromatization as it is caused or facilitated by aromatase enzymes. Masteron can actually inhibit these aromatase enzymes and block the receptors. This prevents conversions of testosterone to estrogen. The body then has more testosterone available that can be put to good use through workouts. "

1.Masteron is classified as an anti estrogenic steroid. This is because of the ability of the androgenic-anabolic steroid to resist aromatization - Anti-estrogenic? Only in the most facile sense of the term. Sinply because it does not aromatize doesn't make it anti anything it simply means it will not add additional problems or Estradiol as a result of its use. So right off the bat we have a very misleading statement.

2. Masteron can actually inhibit these aromatase enzymes and block the receptors - What is happening here actually is that Masteron binds to SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin), SHBG binds to Testosterone thus decreasing the amount of free Test available to the body. By binding to SHBG Masteron then as a result prevent SHBG from binding to testosterone and frees up more Test ie raises your "Free Testoserone" levels. What was said isn't technically incorrect but how it was expressed isn't clear at all and lends to the confusion.

3. If you look at the product literature for that was initialy disseminate by the manufacturer Syntex they have listed Masteron/Masteril/Drostanolone as a "Powerful" anabolic/anti-estrogenic compound. Now, regardless of the fine points we know that in actual fact it is neither. Whatever effects it does have you are not going to refer to them as "Powerful" - , Masteron: Anabolic/Androgenic Ratio:62:25, that right there tells the truth of it!

The FDA (not what anyone would consider an authority on AAS) then classified Drostanolone according to the manufacturer's documentation when they approved it for use thus proliferating the misinformation. So taking that, along with a distinct lack of any realy sound, scientific support for either the manufacturer's claims, or the premise that drostanolone is a powerful anti-estrogenic, or really an anti-estrogenic compound of any sort, I think that although it may be fair to allow some leeway for Masteron not aromatizing and not contributing further to Estradiol issues, inhibiting natural Tesatosterone production (as do many/most AAS) and therefor indirectly decreasing Estradiol levels because there is no natural Testosterone being produced and therfore none being aromatized into Estrogen, I don't think it would be accurate at all to say that Masteron/similar DHT derivs can directly tank Estrogen levels as a result of anything it specifically does differently from any other AAS.

On a side note, as is the case with a lot of this stuff, you can look at many, many, web pages and not only will you find completely incorrect information but even info that contradicts itself in the same page/site. the understanding that this is happening and the resulting confusion can go a long way to explaining why people have so many completely botched understandings of things or why "Bro Science" even exists to any extent. Not even mentioning the people that purposely disseminate ambiguous or downright false info purely for their own profit...cough cough Dylan Gemelli.

*******Now, aside from all of that PLEASE REMEMBER THAT ONE OF OUR TOP RULES HERE IN THIS COMMUNITY IS TO PLAY NICE AND KEEP THE DISCUSSIONS FRIENDLY AND DEVOID OF ANY PERSONAL ATTACKS OR AD HOMINEM NONSENSE. Just a friendly reminder.

Cheers

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On 10/11/2019 at 10:52 PM, method_air said:

Where did I state that DHTs WILL crash estrogen? 

The premise of the argument clearly passed you by.

These facts suggest that large dosages of DHT derivatives like masteron (without a testosterone base) COULD unhealthily lower/crash estrogen, resulting in dry, achy joints etc.

This was anecdotally supported by Matt Porter:

Others on the other hand, may never experience these issues.

While Greg Doucette is entitled to his opinion (albeit admittedly bro-scientific), it does not refute the evidence/facts provided. 

While it may be easy to forget how immensely knowledgeable Greg Doucette is, based on his comedic, or entertaining delivery, I think you would be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgeable, or with a sounder understanding. IFBB Pro card holder, Power-Lifting World record Holder, PHD level graduate in Kinesiology, I mean the man has smarts all kinds going on, in addition to his physical attributes he has cultivated, not too mention his many years coaching successful athletes. So in so far as expressing his opinions, that may be, but my own experince of him is that he expresses opinions based on fact, and experience, and not on conjecture.

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My big worry here was that someone new to the game may read that false statement, pull their ai while on a dht or even try using a dht as an ai. 

Appreciate the research, knowledge and level of diplomacy you used to bring some clarity to the situation Frank! 

Ima go eat some turkey and try for a bench pr! 😁 

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39 minutes ago, GainTrain said:

My big worry here was that someone new to the game may read that false statement, pull their ai while on a dht or even try using a dht as an ai. 

Appreciate the research, knowledge and level of diplomacy you used to bring some clarity to the situation Frank! 

Ima go eat some turkey and try for a bench pr! 😁 

I hear you...Have a great day mate and best of luck with that PR!

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10 hours ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

While it may be easy to forget how immensely knowledgeable Greg Doucette is, based on his comedic, or entertaining delivery, I think you would be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgeable, or with a sounder understanding. IFBB Pro card holder, Power-Lifting World record Holder, PHD level graduate in Kinesiology, I mean the man has smarts all kinds going on, in addition to his physical attributes he has cultivated, not too mention his many years coaching successful athletes. So in so far as expressing his opinions, that may be, but my own experince of him is that he expresses opinions based on fact, and experience, and not on conjecture.

While that is true, it doesn't change the fact that DHT derivatives like Primo etc could unhealthily abruptly lower estrogen for some, to the point where dry, achy joints occur. I have firsthand experience that completely echoed what Matt Porter reported. The only time other time this happened was after the introduction of a tiny amount of arimidex, which was promptly discontinued and never resumed thereafter (without issue). 

People should develop critical thinking skills so they can make informed decisions, based on the literature, and experience. 

Edited by method_air
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The information shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone capable of fairly trivial research, and cognitive functioning. If you have unhealthily low estrogenic activity (whether excessively blocked at the receptor or otherwise), you can run into side effects.

With further respect to AIs and anecodotal evidence, Dr. Serrano states:

"This enzyme (aromatase) is completely killed by this drug (AI), and you don't have no conversion, so your joints start hurting, your elbows start hurting, so I rarely use this"

Like Serrano suggested, if you are male and prone to growing tits, options beyond primo probably are necessary. 

Edited by method_air
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I don’t have time for you princess. And thankfully due to your inability to even keep the argument within the realm of “dht will crash estrogen” and your pathetic little insults I’m just gonna laugh my ass off at you (as will anyone that reads this thread) and go make some serious gains! Ty for the lols. Get a life lil bud, try working out? 

*your iq is only matched by your physique, neither exist* 😂😘

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15 hours ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

So there's a lot of confusion regarding Masteron and after having looked at it very deeply I can see where a lot of it is coming from.Here is a quote from a particular source, doesn't really matter which one as the same has been said by many. I'll point out where the problems leading to confusion lie.

" Masteron is classified as an anti estrogenic steroid. This is because of the ability of the androgenic-anabolic steroid to resist aromatization. Many androgenic-anabolic steroids get converted to the female sex hormone estrogen. This is called aromatization as it is caused or facilitated by aromatase enzymes. Masteron can actually inhibit these aromatase enzymes and block the receptors. This prevents conversions of testosterone to estrogen. The body then has more testosterone available that can be put to good use through workouts. "

1.Masteron is classified as an anti estrogenic steroid. This is because of the ability of the androgenic-anabolic steroid to resist aromatization - Anti-estrogenic? Only in the most facile sense of the term. Sinply because it does not aromatize doesn't make it anti anything it simply means it will not add additional problems or Estradiol as a result of its use. So right off the bat we have a very misleading statement.

2. Masteron can actually inhibit these aromatase enzymes and block the receptors - What is happening here actually is that Masteron binds to SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin), SHBG binds to Testosterone thus decreasing the amount of free Test available to the body. By binding to SHBG Masteron then as a result prevent SHBG from binding to testosterone and frees up more Test ie raises your "Free Testoserone" levels. What was said isn't technically incorrect but how it was expressed isn't clear at all and lends to the confusion.

3. If you look at the product literature for that was initialy disseminate by the manufacturer Syntex they have listed Masteron/Masteril/Drostanolone as a "Powerful" anabolic/anti-estrogenic compound. Now, regardless of the fine points we know that in actual fact it is neither. Whatever effects it does have you are not going to refer to them as "Powerful" - , Masteron: Anabolic/Androgenic Ratio:62:25, that right there tells the truth of it!

The FDA (not what anyone would consider an authority on AAS) then classified Drostanolone according to the manufacturer's documentation when they approved it for use thus proliferating the misinformation. So taking that, along with a distinct lack of any realy sound, scientific support for either the manufacturer's claims, or the premise that drostanolone is a powerful anti-estrogenic, or really an anti-estrogenic compound of any sort, I think that although it may be fair to allow some leeway for Masteron not aromatizing and not contributing further to Estradiol issues, inhibiting natural Tesatosterone production (as do many/most AAS) and therefor indirectly decreasing Estradiol levels because there is no natural Testosterone being produced and therfore none being aromatized into Estrogen, I don't think it would be accurate at all to say that Masteron/similar DHT derivs can directly tank Estrogen levels as a result of anything it specifically does differently from any other AAS.

On a side note, as is the case with a lot of this stuff, you can look at many, many, web pages and not only will you find completely incorrect information but even info that contradicts itself in the same page/site. the understanding that this is happening and the resulting confusion can go a long way to explaining why people have so many completely botched understandings of things or why "Bro Science" even exists to any extent. Not even mentioning the people that purposely disseminate ambiguous or downright false info purely for their own profit...cough cough Dylan Gemelli.

*******Now, aside from all of that PLEASE REMEMBER THAT ONE OF OUR TOP RULES HERE IN THIS COMMUNITY IS TO PLAY NICE AND KEEP THE DISCUSSIONS FRIENDLY AND DEVOID OF ANY PERSONAL ATTACKS OR AD HOMINEM NONSENSE. Just a friendly reminder.

Cheers

To clarify any confusion, Anthony Roberts (author of Anabolic Steroids: Ultimate Research Guide) states:

To understand why Masteron can be used as an anti-estrogen, first we need to know that it’s derived from DHT. Why is this important?

This is important because DHT directly inhibits estrogenic activity on tissues. It is possible that it does this, possibly by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen receptor binding. Either way, it has multiple hypothesized mechanisms of action in some tissues. It has also been hypothesized that DHT actually suppresses estrogen’s effects not by inhibition of synthesis of estrogen receptor, but by (get ready…big words coming up) decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at some point after the actual estrogen receptor binding has occurred. This means, in much simpler terms, that the estrogen gets to the receptor, but just doesn’t do its job (1). This means you can take steroids that convert to estrogen (called aromatizable steroids) and not worry about that estrogen possibly making you retain water, gain fat, or watch "Desperate Housewives." Also, this could mean that the antiestrogenic effect of DHT is mediated by an androgen receptor mediated mechanism. In fact, DHT has been shown to prevent the estrogen-dependent augmentation of the progesterone receptor in human breast cancer cells. And, not to be redundant, but it’s important to remember that virtually all of the anti-estrogens we use to control gyno and water retention are also used to treat breast cancer. So, now we know have observed that androgens are capable of inhibiting both the estrogenic induction and the ongoing stimulation of PRc synthesis, but have no apparent effect upon basal concentrations of this receptor. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) demonstrates a very high degree of inhibition of estrogen in human breast cancer cells. (2). But it’s not just DHT that does this; its metabolites have been shown to inhibit aromatization itself; DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are all potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. In fact, it's so potent at reducing estrogen that transdermal DHT gel applied to the affected area has been used to treat gynocomastia (3). DHT is such a potent anti-estrogen that it been even been used to increase height in children with short stature, and since it’s been determined that this increase is not due to GH-mediated effects, it was strongly suggested that DHT’s anti-estrogenic effects are the mechanism by which it can increase height (4) Of course, I suspect I don’t need to tell you that DHT is structurally incapable or converting to estrogen…

But has Masteron actually lived up to my claims for being an anti-estrogen? Yes. From 1968 to 1972, a decent sized study was conducted on Masteron, in a group of premenopausal women with breast cancer. About a third responded well to Masteron (6). This is because of its anti-estrogenic effects, clearly- though it doesn’t perform as well as Arimidex, Letrozole , or Aromasin. If you’re not running huge amounts of aromatizable steroids, this is a very good choice to add into your cycle...if you’re running well under a gram of aromatizable steroids, Masteron will likely be all the anti-estrogen you need. This number comes from my person experience, as well as others I’ve interviewed.

Edited by method_air
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That's your call. I would consider the advice of experts like Dr. Serrano, John Meadows, William Llewellyn, Anthony Roberts and Matt Porter (rip) over an anonymous gym bro, with a 3rd grade education, who resorts to name calling.

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William Llewellyn: Aromatase inhibitors such as anastrozole and letrozole significantly lower the synthesis of estrogen in the body (reducing all of its activity). We know from studies that this can significantly enhance the negative effects on cholesterol. Estrogen is an important hormone for the male cardiovascular system. 

 

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To an extent some of it is right but there is a lot of skewed information there too, it can easily be picked out by an experienced user I mean first hand user , not by people that never pinned, so if all this was true I would have high cholesterol and no gains , so with zero estrogen we would have little to no gains correct ? So I guess I should toss all my gear and Ai products and go natty so I get huge ? 

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19 minutes ago, method_air said:

That's your call. I would consider the advice of experts like Dr. Serrano, John Meadows, William Llewellyn, Anthony Roberts and Matt Porter (rip) over an anonymous gym bro, with a 3rd grade education, who resorts to name calling.

 

 I’m not arguing with any of those guys. I’m arguing with a lityle child  Who claimed “running dhts Will crash your estrogen” 

 Least I’ve seen a gym,  coming from an armchair bodybuilder that doesn’t really mean much. 😂

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“if you’re running well under a gram of aromatizable steroids, Masteron will likely be all the anti-estrogen you need. This number comes from my person experience, as well as others I’ve interviewed.“

 

Have you ever run a cycle? 😂 Tell me you din’t cut copy paste, but believe that shit?

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Ok this comes from a personal experience only no doctor or science to back it , I have never crashed on it ever , I’ve also run Ai compounds no problem, @GainTrain is right we know from experience not what looks good on paper , I can’t believe I even stuck my nose in this argument lol, I’m out I’ll sit back and watch , being I know nothing as I don’t have Dr. In front of my name. 

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9 hours ago, CapeBretonDadBod said:

I’m going with @GainTrain on this one ! Let’s move past this folks it’s getting ridiculous and out of hand. To each their own, just don’t mess up newbies.

As ambiguous as Method's logic may seem to be, he is making an attempt at a rational discussion. GainTrain is the one doing the belittling and hurling the insults - attitude leaves a lot to be desired...

This line of discussion started because it was asked if DHB can be used alone in a cycle. If I understand correctly, Method's point was in essence:

- All AAS are somewhat suppressive of endogenous test production in males

- Endogenous estrogen in males comes from the aromatization of that testosterone

- So, using an AAS that does not aromatize to estrogen itself and is suppressive of endogenous test production,  in the absence of exogenous test (ie using that AAS solo), may lead to low estrogen levels because of insufficient test (exo or endo) to convert in the first place.

Logical questions for the initial inquiry are then: How suppressive is DHB and does it aromatize (if so, how much)?

Yes, in BB circles it is generally assumed that one always runs at least a TRT dose test to maintain basic function on a cycle but this should not preclude discussion of alternatives in light of new information.

Lastly, the question posed to Greg Doucette was oversimplified and lacked the context of the discussion.  

 

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@Fizzyx I have to also agree with you too @GainTrain delivery could have been better , I think we can all agree that all of use test as a base I believe it’s the proper thing to do, if we sift through they both have some points , we have two passionate individuals trying to make points can’t really fault them for that, I think it should be put to bed tho before it gets too out of hand and someone gets spanked by a mod. Let’s chalk it up to agree to disagree and move on. Bickering will get us nowhere we are here to learn and support each other , we don’t want to end up like other boards out there .

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46 minutes ago, Fizzyx said:

As ambiguous as Method's logic may seem to be, he is making an attempt at a rational discussion. GainTrain is the one doing the belittling and hurling the insults - attitude leaves a lot to be desired...

This line of discussion started because it was asked if DHB can be used alone in a cycle. If I understand correctly, Method's point was in essence:

- All AAS are somewhat suppressive of endogenous test production in males

- Endogenous estrogen in males comes from the aromatization of that testosterone

- So, using an AAS that does not aromatize to estrogen itself and is suppressive of endogenous test production,  in the absence of exogenous test (ie using that AAS solo), may lead to low estrogen levels because of insufficient test (exo or endo) to convert in the first place.

Logical questions for the initial inquiry are then: How suppressive is DHB and does it aromatize (if so, how much)?

Yes, in BB circles it is generally assumed that one always runs at least a TRT dose test to maintain basic function on a cycle but this should not preclude discussion of alternatives in light of new information.

Lastly, the question posed to Greg Doucette was oversimplified and lacked the context of the discussion.  

 

Dhb is suppressive. How suppressive? Doesnt matter, not the issue.

It does not aromatise at all. Nor does it lower estrogen. 

Since you want to join in, the argument here is DHT will crash your estrogen. It’s a simple fucking question, and Greg Doucette answered it simply. No it won’t, and anyone with half a brain knows that.

 If you’ll  excuse me, I’m on 900 mg of testosterone. I need to pin some mast as I’ve tossed my ai.... 😂😂

Edited by GainTrain
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41 minutes ago, CapeBretonDadBod said:

@Fizzyx I have to also agree with you too @GainTrain delivery could have been better , I think we can all agree that all of use test as a base I believe it’s the proper thing to do, if we sift through they both have some points , we have two passionate individuals trying to make points can’t really fault them for that, I think it should be put to bed tho before it gets too out of hand and someone gets spanked by a mod. Let’s chalk it up to agree to disagree and move on. Bickering will get us nowhere we are here to learn and support each other , we don’t want to end up like other boards out there .

Word.

Let's hope those responsible figure that out. 😉

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