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Looking to add an oral/sarm to my cycle..suggestions?ns


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33 minutes ago, Corey5150 said:

I'm not in this thread to back either side of this BP argument, but am I curious can you cite any studies that mention it to be carcinogenic in humans?

As far as I was concerned it was discontinued from further development in 2007 when it was found to cause cancer in mice. In the limited human studies performed there were actually very little adverse reactions reported. I'm just looking for confirmation 

You're certainly not wrong to have concern about cancer, however with any recommendation it requires individual research and weighing of pros/cons. I wouldn't ridicule anyone for recommending it. Personally after reviewing the study you're referring to by GSK, I was not concerned about cardarine. The reason being is the rats used are predisposed to developing cancer genetically with life spans of something like 36 months. Cancer was noticed in dosages as low as 40+mg for 2 year period. The life span for rat to human is 13.8 rat days is 1 year. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3733029/)

 

Lets say each month is 29 days give or take, 36x29=1044 Average rat lives 1044 days divided by 13.8 so about 75 years old

the study is 2 years so 24 months so they took cardarine at 40mg per day for 50 years, this is approx and im coming up with as we speak.

GH has been found to promote growth of cancer cells in some studies, you dont hear people say boo about that. Anyway not here to argue what you're saying because you arent wrong, just saying there is multiple ways to extrapolate data from studies.

 

Sorry Synster to hijack thread with this haha, just wanted to clarify my suggestion. Interested hearing from everyone though, lots of viewpoints on the matter which is great!

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25 minutes ago, CanadianMuscleDad said:

You're certainly not wrong to have concern about cancer, however with any recommendation it requires individual research and weighing of pros/cons. I wouldn't ridicule anyone for recommending it. Personally after reviewing the study you're referring to by GSK, I was not concerned about cardarine. The reason being is the rats used are predisposed to developing cancer genetically with life spans of something like 36 months. Cancer was noticed in dosages as low as 40+mg for 2 year period. The life span for rat to human is 13.8 rat days is 1 year. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3733029/)

 

Lets say each month is 29 days give or take, 36x29=1044 Average rat lives 1044 days divided by 13.8 so about 75 years old

the study is 2 years so 24 months so they took cardarine at 40mg per day for 50 years, this is approx and im coming up with as we speak.

GH has been found to promote growth of cancer cells in some studies, you dont hear people say boo about that. Anyway not here to argue what you're saying because you arent wrong, just saying there is multiple ways to extrapolate data from studies.

 

Sorry Synster to hijack thread with this haha, just wanted to clarify my suggestion. Interested hearing from everyone though, lots of viewpoints on the matter which is great!

Sorry perhaps I didn't make my own view points clear - I think the cancer accusations are drastically overstated and just like you showed (which is great by the way) its quite an extrapolation to compare. And its not something I am particularly concerned with. Every compound has a potential negative and we need to understand the risks... just like insulin, dnp, HGH, etc...

I was more poking at the fact that those claims of cancer have not been shown on human trials. Or if they were I was unaware and perhaps he could have linked them lol

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23 minutes ago, Corey5150 said:

Sorry perhaps I didn't make my own view points clear - I think the cancer accusations are drastically overstated and just like you showed (which is great by the way) its quite an extrapolation to compare. And its not something I am particularly concerned with. Every compound has a potential negative and we need to understand the risks... just like insulin, dnp, HGH, etc...

I was more poking at the fact that those claims of cancer have not been shown on human trials. Or if they were I was unaware and perhaps he could have linked them lol

Sorry about that was meaning to respond to @xSteazy. Just wanted to clarify my suggestion, I try to keep the posts simple and not too long but sometimes clarification is needed haha.

You are bang on about the human trials but once again, depends how you interpret data, from what I remember the human trials were only done at 10mg and there was no cancer or tumours found but the studies weren't really looking fro that from what I saw, but weighing the evidence, I'd agree low dose short term, a very effective drug especially for cholesterol, endurance and fat loss.

 

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14 hours ago, Corey5150 said:

I'm not in this thread to back either side of this BP argument, but am I curious can you cite any studies that mention it to be carcinogenic in humans?

As far as I was concerned it was discontinued from further development in 2007 when it was found to cause cancer in mice. In the limited human studies performed there were actually very little adverse reactions reported. I'm just looking for confirmation

Indeed. The conversion from rodent dose to human dose also makes a massive difference in what dose you are looking at that MAY cause a problem related to cancer.. If I recall, from memory, the factor for the conversion is .16 so that would equate to a danger dose of about 1.6mg/kg for humans so for a 100kg human (220lbs) or 160mg/day. Thats is well above anything any sane person would take. So based on that I would posit that cardarine really doesn' pose much of a threat to cause cancer in humans so long as you stick to a safe dose and cycles.

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On 11/17/2019 at 4:16 PM, Carbone said:

You mentioned anxiety in your post, was this before or after your front load?

I find high(ish) doses of masteron to be quite unpleasant, and it is fairly common for large doses of eq to cause anxiety, just food for thought.

As for the orals, I've only ever used them for strength. My favorite being 40mg d-bol. 

But in all honesty I've never been a big fan of orals. I've never used one that accomplished something that test or tren couldn't do better.

I've never run what could be considered high doses of Masteron but at 300mg/week the one thing that I can say it is excellent for, in my case anyway, is eliminating any excess fluid that i was carrying and that includes any that was causing any level of edema in my lower quadrants. I have had an issue with edema for quite some time, completely unrelated to PEDs and as soon as I started using Masteron it basically vanished. Previously I used diuretics that whille effective had their own issues and I can say honestly that the Masteron is significantly more effective. At 300mg/week it hasn't seemed to have any negative sides either and on my next bloods in about 6 weeks we'll see what they say but I'm not really expecting any surprises. I stick to my supplement regime to maintain my strong lipids profile, have my test dialed in so no Estradiol issues and where I have been pinning every day anyway I switched out to all short esters as why not and am seeing a bit of a boost in metabolism and energy that Lord knows right now I need lol...Thats likley from the NPP that is part of my current regime as I try to dial in what AAS are of the most personal benefit and at what doses, with an eye toward as low as possible in all cases.

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2 minutes ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

I stick to my supplement regime to maintain my strong lipids profile

Curious as to what you do.

I've seen my LDL drop almost in half, my HDL almost double, and my triglycerides almost disappear on:

500mg Niacin twice per day (this I think is the main contributor)

250mg Resveratrol twice per day

K2(mk7) 120 mcg once per day

4g total Omega 3 (three or so times per day)

Three or four ounces of quality single malt scotch per week - one of life's necessities...😎 

And I tried Berberine for a while but take only a small amount on non lifting days now.  I think this stuff was SO effective at shutting down inflammation responses that I couldn't get ANY muscle soreness no matter how crazy I went in the gym.  Now that I'm down to only off-day use, I get a little soreness here and there to remind me I'm still alive.

 

 

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23 hours ago, CapeBretonDadBod said:

I’m not telling him to live without blood pressure medication I’m telling him to start to find the root cause and then if he doesn’t by all means get the medication for sure , but why jump the gun and go right to the medication and mask the cause of it ? So then the meds lower it a bit and then continue on with the cycle ? Wouldn’t you want to get to the root cause and get rid of the cause ? Why take more drugs then necessary if you can control it ? And also have your doctor involved and judge your choices . Don’t twist my words man I’d never put anyone at risk . It’s human nature when people mask symptoms they continue on doing what they are doing thinking all is fine and that’s how things become worse, ask me how I know ? I’ve done it !

I agree.

I had a brief stint where my BP shot up and my first step was to dial back the AAS I was using that seemed most obvious to be the culprit. It turned out to be a combination of things, one AAS related and one not at all but dialing back the PED effectively nipped the issue in the bud. Many docs that are experienced in the field will tell you that unless your BP is way off the charts the imminent danger is very much overblown unless you have a known history of cardiac issues or a genetic predisposition for catastrophic cardiac events. Dr Rand MClian for example has been a very vocal practitioner on this topic for years, also mentioning that your BP being somewhat high, or higher, at times is not nearly so much of a worry as a sustained and massive increase at much higher levels that the colored zones on those machines would indicate.

Most BP meds are not without their own issues so being able to mitigate without going there is definitely a positive,

Food for thought.

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On 11/21/2019 at 9:13 AM, BobTheOldLifter said:

Curious as to what you do.

I've seen my LDL drop almost in half, my HDL almost double, and my triglycerides almost disappear on:

500mg Niacin twice per day (this I think is the main contributor)

250mg Resveratrol twice per day

K2(mk7) 120 mcg once per day

4g total Omega 3 (three or so times per day)

Three or four ounces of quality single malt scotch per week - one of life's necessities...😎 

And I tried Berberine for a while but take only a small amount on non lifting days now.  I think this stuff was SO effective at shutting down inflammation responses that I couldn't get ANY muscle soreness no matter how crazy I went in the gym.  Now that I'm down to only off-day use, I get a little soreness here and there to remind me I'm still alive.

 

 

I am a huge fan of Choline/Inositol/Methianine for starters. This combination at 3grams/day of each, for 30 days, run once per quarter or 3 times a year depending on your substance use, is as good or better than any pharma for clearing out the sludge from your liver, the one caveat being any fatty liver issues as a result of alcohol use, lol...I also supplement lower doses of each daily at 300mg per supplement.

I also use Omega 3 at 4grams each of the 2 per day.

I supplement with Ashwagandha dosed at 300-1000mg per day depending on the concentration of the product I can get at any given time as the one brand I like the most I have ahard time getting reliably as it is not available in Canada. This has a very positive impact on Cortisol that then positively impacts your lipids.

3 grams of very high quality Agmatine per day. I can't say enough about this stuff but you need to make sure that you get the Arcane Sulphate free type as at higher doses the Arcane Sulphate content is neurotoxic. I bring mine in from China as any of the retail available products are just too damned expensive to maintain that dosing regime. I bring in a couple of kilos at a time for myself and a couple oif friends and to spread out the freight cost but its still dirt cheap at I think $40 USD/kilo the last time I bought it. The over-all positive health impact is so under publisized it really is a shame.

Mundane but definitely positively impacting supplements...Garlic, Ginger, Fenugreek, Ginseng. These are all dirt cheap and all have solid research on them to support their cholesterol benfits. There are also lots of combination products available.

I take a daily multi-vitamin that although not lipids specific helps to maintain metabolism and protein synthesis which again will ultimately impact lipids in a positve fashion. Its nothing special except that it has all the trace minerals (especially Selenium), & Acetyl L Carnitine.

Lastly, and I think that covers it, lol, Fiber and maintaining good hydration. I drink Gatorade Zero by the truckload lol. Its literally the only thing I have found that keeps me hydrated and doesnt have all the sugar in it that normal GA has.

I want to add a supplement that contains Berberine, Gymnema, and a couple other supps in it as they seem to work as really good Glucose Disposal Agents and again although not really directly involved with the lipids the tertiary impact will still be positive. Right now the cost is the thing as its pretty significant. Soon as I can afford it then it gets added.

edit: The longer the list gets the more I forget lol...10k IU D3 (10k/day Dr Rand advice lol) was left out.

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1 hour ago, BobTheOldLifter said:

Curious as to what you do.

I've seen my LDL drop almost in half, my HDL almost double, and my triglycerides almost disappear on:

500mg Niacin twice per day (this I think is the main contributor)

250mg Resveratrol twice per day

K2(mk7) 120 mcg once per day

4g total Omega 3 (three or so times per day)

Three or four ounces of quality single malt scotch per week - one of life's necessities...😎 

And I tried Berberine for a while but take only a small amount on non lifting days now.  I think this stuff was SO effective at shutting down inflammation responses that I couldn't get ANY muscle soreness no matter how crazy I went in the gym.  Now that I'm down to only off-day use, I get a little soreness here and there to remind me I'm still alive.

 

 

I forgot to mention.

I take just the bare min of Niacin as no matter what brand or type I can't escape the flush and I hate it, even all of the non flush ones I react to so what can ya do. Resveratrol I used to take but then I read a couple of studies about brain atrophy and although likley not a concern for healthy sorts with my health issues and the related cognitive impact I thought it best to forgo. Just something to think about for anyone with similar issues.

I want to add K2 as I really should and somehow really sort of missed the benefits until recently. If you have a brand that you have had good luck with please point me at it as it always takes more time researching that part to make sure you get a quality supp!

thanks mate.

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4 minutes ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

I forgot to mention.

I take just the bare min of Niacin as no matter what brand or type I can't escape the flush and I hate it, even all of the non flush ones I react to so what can ya do. Resveratrol I used to take but then I read a couple of studies about brain atrophy and although likley not a concern for healthy sorts with my health issues and the related cognitive impact I thought it best to forgo. Just something to think about for anyone with similar issues.

I want to add K2 as I really should and somehow really sort of missed the benefits until recently. If you have a brand that you have had good luck with please point me at it as it always takes more time researching that part to make sure you get a quality supp!

thanks mate.

I don't have the K2 with me atm, but will definitely send the info later today.

And yeah, the niacin flush can be a pain, I got it hard, but the non-flush niacin isn't the same compound and won't deliver the same benefits as I understand it.  A better option is extended release, not non-flush.  It took me a good 3 mths or so of working up my niacin dose so the flushing wouldn't be so bad - take after eating.  Now I rarely get a flush that lasts for more than 10 mins and I just suck it up.  Usually now there is no flush at all.  This stuff really works for me - lipids dialed right in.

My wife took a 500mg niacin by mistake on an empty stomach a little while back.  She looked like a ripe tomato ready to burst for an hour!

 

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Just now, BobTheOldLifter said:

I don't have the K2 with me atm, but will definitely send the info later today.

And yeah, the niacin flush can be a pain, I got it hard, but the non-flush niacin isn't the same compound and won't deliver the same benefits as I understand it.  A better option is extended release, not non-flush.  It took me a good 3 mths or so of working up my niacin dose so the flushing wouldn't be so bad - take after eating.  Now I rarely get a flush that lasts for more than 10 mins and I just suck it up.  Usually now there is no flush at all.  This stuff really works for me - lipids dialed right in.

My wife took a 500mg niacin by mistake on an empty stomach a little while back.  She looked like a ripe tomato ready to burst for an hour!

 

Bingo! Yup thats me lol, like a tomato!

I honestly didnt try extended and titration so I'll give it a whirl and see how I make out. Like most stuff start low and go slow, I should have just tried that just got so annoyed at the bloody flush. its one of the reasons I wont use anything with beta Alinine if I can at all avoid it, that flush and itch lol...

thanks for the coming info on the k2, I appreciate it.

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1 hour ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

I forgot to mention.

I take just the bare min of Niacin as no matter what brand or type I can't escape the flush and I hate it, even all of the non flush ones I react to so what can ya do. Resveratrol I used to take but then I read a couple of studies about brain atrophy and although likley not a concern for healthy sorts with my health issues and the related cognitive impact I thought it best to forgo. Just something to think about for anyone with similar issues.

I want to add K2 as I really should and somehow really sort of missed the benefits until recently. If you have a brand that you have had good luck with please point me at it as it always takes more time researching that part to make sure you get a quality supp!

thanks mate.

I’ve been taking this brand of K2 for the past couple years. Best one out there 

CanPrev D3 1000IU and K2 120mcg,... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00PUX1LXC?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

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4 hours ago, BobTheOldLifter said:

Haha,  same brand for me too, CanPrev but no D3.  I take that separately. 

Have you seen any noticeable benefits from the D3? I've taken it for a couple of years, just sort of assuming I'm deficient in vitamin D (since a lot of people apparently are, and I don't get a huge amount of sun).

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19 hours ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

Indeed. The conversion from rodent dose to human dose also makes a massive difference in what dose you are looking at that MAY cause a problem related to cancer.. If I recall, from memory, the factor for the conversion is .16 so that would equate to a danger dose of about 1.6mg/kg for humans so for a 100kg human (220lbs) or 160mg/day. Thats is well above anything any sane person would take. So based on that I would posit that cardarine really doesn' pose much of a threat to cause cancer in humans so long as you stick to a safe dose and cycles.

Agreed...sake argument goes for aspartame and 1 or 2 other artificial sweeteners.

 

Stay under 600 packets of sweetener a day and ur fine

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8 hours ago, Emporer Mine said:

Have you seen any noticeable benefits from the D3? I've taken it for a couple of years, just sort of assuming I'm deficient in vitamin D (since a lot of people apparently are, and I don't get a huge amount of sun).

Noticeable no.  I take it for preventive/protective reasons.  Its one of the blood markers I watch.  I  take 8000/d in the winter and 6000/d in summer to optimize. 

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1 hour ago, BobTheOldLifter said:

Noticeable no.  I take it for preventive/protective reasons.  Its one of the blood markers I watch.  I  take 8000/d in the winter and 6000/d in summer to optimize. 

Fair. People I've spoken to have claimed positive changes in mood. I've never noticed anything. I take 5000/d.

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22 hours ago, ElectricRocker said:

Same here, I’m about 3000 in the summer and 6-8k during the winter. 

I can say honestly that my wife is better on it than not, in the winter, as she suffers from SAD. I'm currently on 10,000 IU full time and I have her on 4000/8000 summer/winter. There's no mistaking the positive impact in my eyes after being with her for 12 years now and having tons of time in to recollect and go by.

Anyone that knows me knows I'm a huge fan/follower of Dr Rand and he is very vocal about 10k IU/day ful time, and especially if running gear. Thats good enough for me and given how cheap it is....

@BobTheOldLifter Out of curiosity what marker are you watching? Total?

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1 hour ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

I can say honestly that my wife is better on it than not, in the winter, as she suffers from SAD. I'm currently on 10,000 IU full time and I have her on 4000/8000 summer/winter. There's no mistaking the positive impact in my eyes after being with her for 12 years now and having tons of time in to recollect and go by.

Anyone that knows me knows I'm a huge fan/follower of Dr Rand and he is very vocal about 10k IU/day ful time, and especially if running gear. Thats good enough for me and given how cheap it is....

@BobTheOldLifter Out of curiosity what marker are you watching? Total?

Right on I’ve never heard of Dr. Rand. I’ll have to look him up. I’ve researched tones of stuff in D3 and dosing but haven’t came across him before. Does he have any good articles you can link me too? Or where do I read his stuff? Thanks 

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21 minutes ago, ElectricRocker said:

Right on I’ve never heard of Dr. Rand. I’ll have to look him up. I’ve researched tones of stuff in D3 and dosing but haven’t came across him before. Does he have any good articles you can link me too? Or where do I read his stuff? Thanks 

Dr Rand McLain... his YT vids are all called "Ask The Doc"

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23 minutes ago, ElectricRocker said:

Right on I’ve never heard of Dr. Rand. I’ll have to look him up. I’ve researched tones of stuff in D3 and dosing but haven’t came across him before. Does he have any good articles you can link me too? Or where do I read his stuff? Thanks 

But YT is just the tip of the iceberg for him. He's really interesting when you go a little deeper. He's just marketed a new Berberine product as well that is worth looking into. It's not entirely unique but given his background I would trust it. It's also a great laternative to Metformin that a lot of people utilize but recently I have come to doubt the benefits vs downsides of metformin after watching Stan Efferding, whom I really believe in, really beat the shit out of using etformin unless you're diabetic of course

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