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remylebeau

GH with Slin or no?

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Hey guys, 

I'm on low dose GH for skin, joint etc. I saw a segment on Dave Palumbo's channel where he was saying GH antagonizes insulin, so it may keep your blood sugar levels higher. Anyone know if this is true and if so what kind of effects that would mean on insulin sensitivity?

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How much growth are you using?  It definitely can make you run high blood sugars, but everyone is different.  Dave talks about this topic a lot on his channel, for the most part, you can usually take what he says as true and factual

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20 hours ago, remylebeau said:

Hey guys, 

I'm on low dose GH for skin, joint etc. I saw a segment on Dave Palumbo's channel where he was saying GH antagonizes insulin, so it may keep your blood sugar levels higher. Anyone know if this is true and if so what kind of effects that would mean on insulin sensitivity?

there is truth to what he says,im digging up some literature. i had an encyclopedia of articles i read through. ill need to sift through it

metformin is great aswell incase youre worried about slin,possibly igf1lr3 and des

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20 hours ago, remylebeau said:

Hey guys, 

I'm on low dose GH for skin, joint etc. I saw a segment on Dave Palumbo's channel where he was saying GH antagonizes insulin, so it may keep your blood sugar levels higher. Anyone know if this is true and if so what kind of effects that would mean on insulin sensitivity?

heres some literature

 

Growth hormone (GH) plays an important role in regulating glucose homeostasis, and impaired glucose homeostasis and increased risk for diabetes have been reported in association with both GH insufficiency and GH excess.1–3 In addition to impaired quality of life, reduced physical activity, decreased bone mineral density and adverse changes in body composition notably increased visceral fat mass, and growth hormone defi- ciency (GHD) in adults is characterized by an adverse metabolic profile and elevated cardiovascular risk markers.4 Furthermore, risk factors associated with diabetes in the general population,5 as a family history of diabetes mellitus or compromised beta-cell function and high body mass index (BMI), have been proposed to increase the risk for adverse changes in carbohydrate metabo- lism during GH replacement in patients with GHD.1
Metabolic syndrome is a complex clinical condition character- ized by the presence of multiple metabolic and cardiovascular risk factors in the same individual, including high blood pressure, abdominal obesity, lipid abnormalities [low levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol and high levels of triglycerides], insulin resistance and impaired fasting glucose.6 In the general population, metabolic syndrome is accompanied by

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The thought behind this is bro science. All of the medical conditions treated by GH, even delayed growth in adolescents with dosing surpassing bodybuilder doses, they never pair it with insulin. This is the thought that you require insulin with gh or you should take insulin at a certain dose. That by no means says not to take insulin, if you want to play with it, give it a go. But if you are only thinking of taking it to balance out a side of GH, don't.

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13 hours ago, Blitz said:

The thought behind this is bro science. All of the medical conditions treated by GH, even delayed growth in adolescents with dosing surpassing bodybuilder doses, they never pair it with insulin. This is the thought that you require insulin with gh or you should take insulin at a certain dose. That by no means says not to take insulin, if you want to play with it, give it a go. But if you are only thinking of taking it to balance out a side of GH, don't.

the above is medical,if you can offer me some medical findings of your opinion I would love to analyze it

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11 hours ago, OLYMPIC said:

the above is medical,if you can offer me some medical findings of your opinion I would love to analyze it

Sorry what do you mean? I'm not offering an opinion I'm saying that the medical community does not prescribe insulin to counteract GH's impact on insulin sensitivity. When a drug causes a side effect that is of notable concern as long as the side effect is not worse than the condition (in which case they would discontinue the drug regime), they typically prescribe a drug to counteract the side effect. For example when a drug regime causes significant edema, a doctor will prescribe lasix to counteract the edema. They do this because you more or less need to or something bad will happen (heart failure). Even in instances where they have small children taking the equivalent of 20iu a day to a 200lb make, they don't counteract insulin sensitivity of GH with insulin. So again what I'm saying is regardless of GH impact on insulin sensitivity it isn't great enough to warrant a need to run insulin. You don't need to mess with insulin because you think you may be messing with your insulin sensitivity. However, if you want to use insulin for gains or just for shits all the power but there is no need to, you're not benefiting your health or preventing some type of bad side effect of GH by using it.

 

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On 9/7/2018 at 1:50 PM, FitGM said:

How much growth are you using?  It definitely can make you run high blood sugars, but everyone is different.  Dave talks about this topic a lot on his channel, for the most part, you can usually take what he says as true and factual

2.5iu /day

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On 9/9/2018 at 12:32 AM, Blitz said:

Sorry what do you mean? I'm not offering an opinion I'm saying that the medical community does not prescribe insulin to counteract GH's impact on insulin sensitivity. When a drug causes a side effect that is of notable concern as long as the side effect is not worse than the condition (in which case they would discontinue the drug regime), they typically prescribe a drug to counteract the side effect. For example when a drug regime causes significant edema, a doctor will prescribe lasix to counteract the edema. They do this because you more or less need to or something bad will happen (heart failure). Even in instances where they have small children taking the equivalent of 20iu a day to a 200lb make, they don't counteract insulin sensitivity of GH with insulin. So again what I'm saying is regardless of GH impact on insulin sensitivity it isn't great enough to warrant a need to run insulin. You don't need to mess with insulin because you think you may be messing with your insulin sensitivity. However, if you want to use insulin for gains or just for shits all the power but there is no need to, you're not benefiting your health or preventing some type of bad side effect of GH by using it.

 

I think theres a large benefit to using GH and Insulin together (not necessary though), and I agree with the above, I think anyone using the combo only to help with insulin sensitivity are kind of short changing themselves. The major of using both is to increase the levels of both on a super physiological level, not necessarily to counter act any side effects from one another. 

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Human growth hormone as found in the body is known as Somatotropin.  The synthetic form of human Growth Hormone(hGH) is known as recombinant human Growth Hormone(rhGH). rhGH's International Nonproprietary Name(INN) is Somatropin. 

This synthetic rhGH Somatropin is sold under brand names of:

a)Omnitrope-Sandoz

b) Serostim by Serono- 18 IU FDA approved for AIDS associated wasting syndrome(cachexia) at 0.1mg/kg q1d (quaque die=every day) or 0.1mg/kg qod(quaque altera die=every other day).  Serono also has another medication called Saizen.  This preparation is indicated for both a)children with growth failure who produce low amounts of growth hormone AND b) adults with GHD(Growth Hormone Deficiency) that started as a child or as an adult. Saizen is available in both 5 mg(15IU) and 8.8 mg(26.4IU) multi-dose vials.

c)Norditropin by Novo.  Norditropin is directed at both the Growth Failure in children due to Growth Hormone Deficiency as well as the Adult Somatopause(a gradual and progressive decrease in growth hormone secretion that occurs normally with increasing age during adult life and is associated with an increase in adipose tissue and LDL levels and a decrease in lean body mass. Delivered in 5mg(15IU), 10mg(30IU), 15mg(45IU), 30mg pens(90IU) pens.

d) Genotropin-(Pfizer-who is the generic drug division of the Swiss drug major-Novartis) Again, the Pfizer version of Somatropin called Genotropin is aimed at the approx. 25,000 children and 50,000 adults who suffer from Somatropin deficiency disorders(Growth Hormone Deficiency-GHD). In 1995 Genotropin was FDA approved for growth hormone deficiency (GHD) alone. As of 2000 and 2006 it is now FDA approved for the five(5) Growth Disorders:

  • Children with growth hormone deficiency (GHD)
  • Children born small for gestational age (SGA)
  • Children with idiopathic short stature (ISS)*
  • Children with Prader-Willi syndrome (PWS)
  • Girls with Turner syndrome (TS)

e) Humatrope (Lilly) 6mg(24IU), 12mg(36IU), 24mg(72IU) cartidges and 5mg(15IU) vial

f) Nutropin (Genentech) 30IU, 60IU pens and 15IU(clear), 30IU(green), 60IU(blue) NuSpin

 

Keeping Blood Glucose Levels raised causes damage.  All the rhGH makers recommend adjustments to diabetics BGL control.  With the amount of food bodybuilders eat couple that with raised fasting and and post prandial(after meal) BGLs I think it is beneficial to take a long acting basal Insulin. Why stress your pancreas and your entire body with high BGLs? Esp. for the people blasting huge doses of hGH year round.  These types of users exhibit the exact same symptoms as a diabetic patient, they should be treated the same as a diabetic. But since BGL control so far as diet is out of the question, that leaves medications.  Bodybuilders usually shy away from Metformin as it lowers IGF-1 levels, so Insulin is easy and effective. Everyone is different, thats why everyone should be doing their bloodwork.  Using Insulin (short acting) as a PED is a different subject than what I'm referring to.

 

Supraphysiological=Of or pertaining to amounts greater than normally found in the body.

Subphysiological=Of or pertaining to amounts lesser than normally found in the body.

 

peace

Hog

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On 9/10/2018 at 2:42 PM, NorthernLifters said:

im on same dose for over a year,no slin needed on that

maybe a metformin here and there

I'm type 2 diabetic and am on a high dose of Metformin of 2 grams(2000mgs) daily.  I see my physician on Wed, hopefully going to get a requisition for hGH and IGF-1 levels.  I wont be surprised to see low IGF-1 levels.  I was quoted a cost of $45 for the IGF-1 test.

 

peace

Hog

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3 hours ago, Hog said:

I'm type 2 diabetic and am on a high dose of Metformin of 2 grams(2000mgs) daily.  I see my physician on Wed, hopefully going to get a requisition for hGH and IGF-1 levels.  I wont be surprised to see low IGF-1 levels.  I was quoted a cost of $45 for the IGF-1 test.

 

peace

Hog

Hog, 

 

Do you use gh aswell? 

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FUCK SLIN bro scares the shit outta me I won't even play with it.  I have a few diabetics in the family and I have dodged that bullet I am not going to tempt fate maybe im a pussy but that is not one compound I will play with hell it took me this long to even touch IGF 

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1 minute ago, NorthernLifters said:

Hog, 

 

Do you use gh aswell? 

No, I do not.  But depending on the results from my hGH and IGF-1 testing my status as a rhGH user may change.  I'd so love to get my hands on some true pharmacy grade rhGH(Somatropin),.  A case of Mecasermin(IGF-1) trade name Increlex would be awesome as well.

peace

Hog

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yes use low dose insulin, 3-4 iu is all you need, it prolongs the IGF tail, thus giving you more out of your gh shots.

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On 9/24/2018 at 9:22 AM, Corey5150 said:

The major of using both is to increase the levels of both on a super physiological level, not necessarily to counter act any side effects from one another. 

The two are not really comparable. HGH like pretty much any other AAS has no upper limit on dosage (except for undesirable side effects) whereas insulin does - meaning more insulin is not necessarily better because of the primary effect of hypoglycemia.

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On 10/4/2018 at 7:59 AM, Hog said:

Keeping Blood Glucose Levels raised causes damage.  All the rhGH makers recommend adjustments to diabetics BGL control.  With the amount of food bodybuilders eat couple that with raised fasting and and post prandial(after meal) BGLs I think it is beneficial to take a long acting basal Insulin. Why stress your pancreas and your entire body with high BGLs? Esp. for the people blasting huge doses of hGH year round.  These types of users exhibit the exact same symptoms as a diabetic patient, they should be treated the same as a diabetic. But since BGL control so far as diet is out of the question, that leaves medications.  Bodybuilders usually shy away from Metformin as it lowers IGF-1 levels, so Insulin is easy and effective. Everyone is different, thats why everyone should be doing their bloodwork.  Using Insulin (short acting) as a PED is a different subject than what I'm referring to.

Different situations.

Since type-1 diabetics have no endogenous insulin production, increases in insulin resistance (for whatever reason) will result in increased blood glucose levels and will require increased exogenous insulin dosage to compensate.

In healthy people, the body will automatically increase endogenous insulin production when triggered by the elevated glucose levels due to any additional resistance. The situation you describe is really for a latent diabetic, someone whose insulin production is adequate for the existing demand but maxed out. If that person then makes changes that increases that demand they will start to show diabetic symptoms. 

IMO it would be better to NOT use insulin at first and monitor instead. If test results suggest that there are issues then that person will have at least have a diagnosis.  

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3 hours ago, Fizzyx said:

The two are not really comparable. HGH like pretty much any other AAS has no upper limit on dosage (except for undesirable side effects) whereas insulin does - meaning more insulin is not necessarily better because of the primary effect of hypoglycemia.

How would insulin have an upper limit if sufficient glucose were present? Thus negating hypoglycemia.

and wouldn’t that be an undesirable side effect as you mention along with AAS and HGH? 

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33 minutes ago, Corey5150 said:

How would insulin have an upper limit if sufficient glucose were present? Thus negating hypoglycemia.

It wouldn't.

Let's put it this way:

1) Lifter goes from TRT dose of 100mg/wk to 1000mg/wk then to 2000mg/wk. Not considering possible side effects, what sort of results would you expect?

2) Lifter goes from 100g dextrose PWO w/10iu insulin to 1000g w/100iu then to 2000g w/200iu. Assuming all dextrose calories are in addition to a bulking diet and there is no hypoglycemia sides, what sort of results would you expect?

So if (1) makes sense why not do (2)?

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21 minutes ago, Fizzyx said:

It wouldn't.

Let's put it this way:

1) Lifter goes from TRT dose of 100mg/wk to 1000mg/wk then to 2000mg/wk. Not considering possible side effects, what sort of results would you expect?

2) Lifter goes from 100g dextrose PWO w/10iu insulin to 1000g w/100iu then to 2000g w/200iu. Assuming all dextrose calories are in addition to a bulking diet and there is no hypoglycemia sides, what sort of results would you expect?

So if (1) makes sense why not do (2)?

Well first I don’t consider peptides and AAS the same and second using your own argument “more insulin is not necessarily better because of the primary effect of  hypoglycemia” I think you’d find diminishing returns on both options - aka the ceiling you speak of, but that’s not to say it’s not 5% better than the other dose. If adequate carbohydrates were consumed you would negate the primary effect you speak of. From someone who has experimented with 150iu of insulin in a day with less than 1,500g of carbs, I didn’t go hypo. Now keep in mind it was over a day and two types were used.

have you used insulin before? Because even most experienced users will tell you 10g of carbohydrates is really not needed. Depending on the individual you may need as little as 4-5g per iu. 

And frankly from someone who has used nearly both options you present I notice more health related side effects and overall LACK of performance from high doses AAS than peptides. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I am type-1. Yes I use insulin.

The dosages were just for the sake of argument.

I was referring to insulin, not peptides in general - I know nothing of the latter.

In case (1) the individual would see an increase in lean anabolic effects (yes likely at diminishing returns). In case (2) the individual would be consuming an additional 8000 kcal (@4kcal/g) just to boost insulin dosage and most likely would turn into a fat bastard - not desireable. Insulin usage/production has to be matched with your food energy intake which should be determined by your goals whereas AAS necessarily do not.

What I am trying to illustrate is that insulin levels cannot be described as normal vs supra-physiological as say testosterone. Beneficial effects from insulin are quite situational. In the context of the OP's question, he only needs to take supplementary insulin if his natural production cannot keep up with the incremental requirement due to any additional resistance from the HGH.

From posts over the years it seems that people often think of insulin in the same way as AAS in the context that 'more is (generally) better.' IMO that is erroneous. 

Edited by Fizzyx

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slin transports nutrients,we all agree there

is there any details that specify that 10iu can and will transport x amount of calories?

typically we use enough slin to ensure we dont drop on our face but also maximize nutrient absorption

its an interesting topic but if i use more iu slin and increase carbs and proteins,more is better than

depends on goal i suppose?

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On 3/12/2019 at 9:10 AM, NorthernLifters said:

is there any details that specify that 10iu can and will transport x amount of calories?

The 1iu for every 10 grams of carbohydrate is a guideline for diabetics. All calories consumed will have an impact on insulin requirements. However, the reason that carbohydrate is generally only specified is because conversion of protein into carbohydrate is quite variable and, while the medical community knows that fat impacts insulin, it does not really understand the mechanics. So the 1 for 10 tends to be conservative. So no, in practice there is no ratio of insulin vs calories.

On a lean bulking diet, 500kcal meals with 40g of carbs I use about 5 iu. So about 1iu/8g.

On a cutting diet: 1iu/10g to 1iu/20g.

On a mild cycle and a bulking diet: 1iu/6g.

If I go for a power hike up the mountain I might not take any insulin with my pre-meal since the activity can burn through all of the glucose. I have to decide how fast I think I'm going to go ahead of time.

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