method_air

1 minute ago, Fizzyx said:

Method dont repost that. Just report it. Best to edit it out.

Ok

8 minutes ago, CapeBretonDadBod said:

Ok guys seriously shut it down !  It’s enough , stop the pissing match and move on, you are both going to end up on the wrong end of a mods ban hammer and it will suck for both of you as you will end up missing lots of good content , just agree to disagree , you both have beliefs stand by your own and move on. I’m saying this to both of you in the most respectful way.

Agreed CapeBretonDadBod...this guy who goes by the name GainTrain just sent me a private message exposing his genitalia...definitely a step too far. 

1 minute ago, GainTrain said:

I’m waiting. Balls in your mouth, I mean court!

Stop already, little man. No offense, I'm into women.

4 minutes ago, GainTrain said:

Lol, “I’m not going down the rabbit hole”

All I hear is “your way bigger and better looking than me”

Thanks again little buddy, you really made my day

Not at all, I don't eat enough nor take enough gear to get massive. Plus, I like my blood pressure in a normal range. That said, my waist is tiny and my shoulders are extremely wide.

1 minute ago, GainTrain said:

 Don’t tell me about a little boy show me! Pics or it didn’t happen ...

Sure, upload a photo measuring your shoulder width with a tape measure and I'll do the same. Why not.

25 minutes ago, GainTrain said:

Fuck me! kiss my

Hmm...no thanks. You should keep your G4P photos to yourself, and not embarrass yourself any further.

Dude, you're small. Not that it matters, but I'm pretty sure I've heavier and wider than you are, even on TRT level doses (220lbs+). But good luck, I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I merely wanted to point out factual evidence regarding crashed estrogen etc, which refuted some of the asinine claims that you made.

20 hours ago, GainTrain said:

Dhb is suppressive. How suppressive? Doesnt matter, not the issue.

It does not aromatise at all. Nor does it lower estrogen. 

Derek from mpmd reiterates similar mechanisms described by Fizzyx:

When you take 19-nor testosterone, you've shut down endogenous testosterone production, but the by product effect of this is, you've shut down your DHT (because you have no testosterone being produced), in addition, you have no aromatization from testosterone to estrogen.

So, without this pathway being fulfilled of testosterone to estrogen conversion, you effectively crush your endogenous sex hormones that are necessary for mediating many physiological functions (ie 'crashed estrogen').

// end of quote

Thus, Derek considered a DECA only cycle, with endogenous estrogen.

Quote

GainTrain wrote: If you’ll  excuse me, I’m on 900 mg of testosterone. I need to pin some mast as I’ve tossed my ai....

900mg test? A lot of people would say you were natural, or on a minimal trt dose.

6"1, 16% bf:

6 hours ago, GainTrain said:

Since you want to join in, the argument here is DHT will crash your estrogen. It’s a simple fucking question, and Greg Doucette answered it simply. No it won’t, and anyone with half a brain knows that.

No, the argument is that: DHT derivatives COULD unhealthily lower estrogenic activity, NOT WILL (because it varies person to person, and may be dose dependent).

As stated, I experienced the same thing Matt Porter reported, about two weeks after starting legit Syn Primo E, at about 400mg wk, test e 300 mg. I don't have joint issues, but my joints suddenly started feeling like they were run over by a train. Dry and creaky. Stopped the primo and the joint issues immediately starting clearing up. If the test base was 500 mg+, I suspect this issue wouldn't have occurred. 

Previously, this happened after about .25 mg of arimidex. I don't get gyno, even at higher doses. If I get any sensitivity, I take a little mast prop, and it goes away. If you take DHB without a test base, you likely won't get any estrogen conversion, which is a bad thing (as Dr. Serrano noted in the video).

Longer term, I will be daily 'microdosing' with shorter esters, as the research also suggests this may be better for estrogen management, while I continue to avoid all AIs and serms.

That's your call. I would consider the advice of experts like Dr. Serrano, John Meadows, William Llewellyn, Anthony Roberts and Matt Porter (rip) over an anonymous gym bro, with a 3rd grade education, who resorts to name calling.

Quote

William Llewellyn: Aromatase inhibitors such as anastrozole and letrozole significantly lower the synthesis of estrogen in the body (reducing all of its activity). We know from studies that this can significantly enhance the negative effects on cholesterol. Estrogen is an important hormone for the male cardiovascular system. 

15 hours ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

So there's a lot of confusion regarding Masteron and after having looked at it very deeply I can see where a lot of it is coming from.Here is a quote from a particular source, doesn't really matter which one as the same has been said by many. I'll point out where the problems leading to confusion lie.

" Masteron is classified as an anti estrogenic steroid. This is because of the ability of the androgenic-anabolic steroid to resist aromatization. Many androgenic-anabolic steroids get converted to the female sex hormone estrogen. This is called aromatization as it is caused or facilitated by aromatase enzymes. Masteron can actually inhibit these aromatase enzymes and block the receptors. This prevents conversions of testosterone to estrogen. The body then has more testosterone available that can be put to good use through workouts. "

1.Masteron is classified as an anti estrogenic steroid. This is because of the ability of the androgenic-anabolic steroid to resist aromatization - Anti-estrogenic? Only in the most facile sense of the term. Sinply because it does not aromatize doesn't make it anti anything it simply means it will not add additional problems or Estradiol as a result of its use. So right off the bat we have a very misleading statement.

2. Masteron can actually inhibit these aromatase enzymes and block the receptors - What is happening here actually is that Masteron binds to SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin), SHBG binds to Testosterone thus decreasing the amount of free Test available to the body. By binding to SHBG Masteron then as a result prevent SHBG from binding to testosterone and frees up more Test ie raises your "Free Testoserone" levels. What was said isn't technically incorrect but how it was expressed isn't clear at all and lends to the confusion.

3. If you look at the product literature for that was initialy disseminate by the manufacturer Syntex they have listed Masteron/Masteril/Drostanolone as a "Powerful" anabolic/anti-estrogenic compound. Now, regardless of the fine points we know that in actual fact it is neither. Whatever effects it does have you are not going to refer to them as "Powerful" - , Masteron: Anabolic/Androgenic Ratio:62:25, that right there tells the truth of it!

The FDA (not what anyone would consider an authority on AAS) then classified Drostanolone according to the manufacturer's documentation when they approved it for use thus proliferating the misinformation. So taking that, along with a distinct lack of any realy sound, scientific support for either the manufacturer's claims, or the premise that drostanolone is a powerful anti-estrogenic, or really an anti-estrogenic compound of any sort, I think that although it may be fair to allow some leeway for Masteron not aromatizing and not contributing further to Estradiol issues, inhibiting natural Tesatosterone production (as do many/most AAS) and therefor indirectly decreasing Estradiol levels because there is no natural Testosterone being produced and therfore none being aromatized into Estrogen, I don't think it would be accurate at all to say that Masteron/similar DHT derivs can directly tank Estrogen levels as a result of anything it specifically does differently from any other AAS.

On a side note, as is the case with a lot of this stuff, you can look at many, many, web pages and not only will you find completely incorrect information but even info that contradicts itself in the same page/site. the understanding that this is happening and the resulting confusion can go a long way to explaining why people have so many completely botched understandings of things or why "Bro Science" even exists to any extent. Not even mentioning the people that purposely disseminate ambiguous or downright false info purely for their own profit...cough cough Dylan Gemelli.

*******Now, aside from all of that PLEASE REMEMBER THAT ONE OF OUR TOP RULES HERE IN THIS COMMUNITY IS TO PLAY NICE AND KEEP THE DISCUSSIONS FRIENDLY AND DEVOID OF ANY PERSONAL ATTACKS OR AD HOMINEM NONSENSE. Just a friendly reminder.

Cheers

To clarify any confusion, Anthony Roberts (author of Anabolic Steroids: Ultimate Research Guide) states:

To understand why Masteron can be used as an anti-estrogen, first we need to know that it’s derived from DHT. Why is this important?

This is important because DHT directly inhibits estrogenic activity on tissues. It is possible that it does this, possibly by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen receptor binding. Either way, it has multiple hypothesized mechanisms of action in some tissues. It has also been hypothesized that DHT actually suppresses estrogen’s effects not by inhibition of synthesis of estrogen receptor, but by (get ready…big words coming up) decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at some point after the actual estrogen receptor binding has occurred. This means, in much simpler terms, that the estrogen gets to the receptor, but just doesn’t do its job (1). This means you can take steroids that convert to estrogen (called aromatizable steroids) and not worry about that estrogen possibly making you retain water, gain fat, or watch "Desperate Housewives." Also, this could mean that the antiestrogenic effect of DHT is mediated by an androgen receptor mediated mechanism. In fact, DHT has been shown to prevent the estrogen-dependent augmentation of the progesterone receptor in human breast cancer cells. And, not to be redundant, but it’s important to remember that virtually all of the anti-estrogens we use to control gyno and water retention are also used to treat breast cancer. So, now we know have observed that androgens are capable of inhibiting both the estrogenic induction and the ongoing stimulation of PRc synthesis, but have no apparent effect upon basal concentrations of this receptor. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) demonstrates a very high degree of inhibition of estrogen in human breast cancer cells. (2). But it’s not just DHT that does this; its metabolites have been shown to inhibit aromatization itself; DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are all potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. In fact, it's so potent at reducing estrogen that transdermal DHT gel applied to the affected area has been used to treat gynocomastia (3). DHT is such a potent anti-estrogen that it been even been used to increase height in children with short stature, and since it’s been determined that this increase is not due to GH-mediated effects, it was strongly suggested that DHT’s anti-estrogenic effects are the mechanism by which it can increase height (4) Of course, I suspect I don’t need to tell you that DHT is structurally incapable or converting to estrogen…

But has Masteron actually lived up to my claims for being an anti-estrogen? Yes. From 1968 to 1972, a decent sized study was conducted on Masteron, in a group of premenopausal women with breast cancer. About a third responded well to Masteron (6). This is because of its anti-estrogenic effects, clearly- though it doesn’t perform as well as Arimidex, Letrozole , or Aromasin. If you’re not running huge amounts of aromatizable steroids, this is a very good choice to add into your cycle...if you’re running well under a gram of aromatizable steroids, Masteron will likely be all the anti-estrogen you need. This number comes from my person experience, as well as others I’ve interviewed.

The information shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone capable of fairly trivial research, and cognitive functioning. If you have unhealthily low estrogenic activity (whether excessively blocked at the receptor or otherwise), you can run into side effects.

With further respect to AIs and anecodotal evidence, Dr. Serrano states:

"This enzyme (aromatase) is completely killed by this drug (AI), and you don't have no conversion, so your joints start hurting, your elbows start hurting, so I rarely use this"

Like Serrano suggested, if you are male and prone to growing tits, options beyond primo probably are necessary. 

10 hours ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

While it may be easy to forget how immensely knowledgeable Greg Doucette is, based on his comedic, or entertaining delivery, I think you would be hard pressed to find someone more knowledgeable, or with a sounder understanding. IFBB Pro card holder, Power-Lifting World record Holder, PHD level graduate in Kinesiology, I mean the man has smarts all kinds going on, in addition to his physical attributes he has cultivated, not too mention his many years coaching successful athletes. So in so far as expressing his opinions, that may be, but my own experince of him is that he expresses opinions based on fact, and experience, and not on conjecture.

While that is true, it doesn't change the fact that DHT derivatives like Primo etc could unhealthily abruptly lower estrogen for some, to the point where dry, achy joints occur. I have firsthand experience that completely echoed what Matt Porter reported. The only time other time this happened was after the introduction of a tiny amount of arimidex, which was promptly discontinued and never resumed thereafter (without issue). 

People should develop critical thinking skills so they can make informed decisions, based on the literature, and experience. 

1 hour ago, GainTrain said:

you said running dht steroids will crash your estrogen. That’s the argument.

Dht’s will NOT crash your E 

Where did I state that DHTs WILL crash estrogen? 

The premise of the argument clearly passed you by.

Quote

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drostanolone_propionate

Some types of breast cancer cells, expressing estrogen receptors (called ER+ cancers), use estrogen for their growth and dissemination. That is why drugs that block estrogen receptors or decrease their expression on the cell membrane, antiestrogens, could limit the tumor spread and size. Drostanolone propionate has been FDA approved[7] as an antiestrogenic drug for the treatment of breast cancer.

 

These facts suggest that large dosages of DHT derivatives like masteron (without a testosterone base) COULD unhealthily lower/crash estrogen, resulting in dry, achy joints etc.

This was anecdotally supported by Matt Porter:

Quote

"Primo was something that I noticed within two weeks, as far as drying me out, and hurting my joints from lowering my estrogen"

Others on the other hand, may never experience these issues.

While Greg Doucette is entitled to his opinion (albeit admittedly bro-scientific), it does not refute the evidence/facts provided. 

12 minutes ago, GainTrain said:

I don’t care to argue with keyboard bodybuilders...go workout bud. Put your vast bodybuilding knowledge to good use.

*wow! You got a post out without 6 edits!

Troll status verified.

Quote

But no one anyway dropped their ai for primo

Some run grams of test without an AI, without issue. 'The fool generalizes the particular'.

Instead of resorting to embarrassing, gratuitous displays of anonymous chest thumping...let's see if you can come up with an intelligent, logical rebuttal (with respect to the literature regarding estrogen management with DHTs).

Good luck.

Quote

Masteron, a dihydrotestosterone, was originally used to treat postmenopausal women for advanced breast cancer. This is because the drug has a very strong anti-estrogenic effect

Trolling is a predictable response, when there is a knowledge deficit. Feel free to review the literature.

37 minutes ago, GainTrain said:

Pls link me to the studies

Bloodwork and symptomatology are more prevalent than 'studies', and more applicable, given that everyone aromatizes differently.

Matt Porter spoke about primobolan substantially lowering his estrogen, and thus causing dry, achy joints in the following video at the 6:30 mark....

On 10/10/2019 at 11:12 AM, GainTrain said:

Running a non aromatizing compound will not crash estrogen. Even proviron or masteron won’t. Proviron is often prescribed alone for low test. Dhb won’t crash your E. Steroids are not aromatase inhibitors.

To clarify, running a cycle without a testosterone base can crash your estrogen, given that one of the main purposes of a testosterone base is to maintain estrogen conversion. Thus, it should be considered.

The same goes for DHT derivatives like primo, masteron etc, which are commonly used for estrogen management (even though they may increase free testosterone).

Are you taking arimidex?

11 hours ago, brett8431 said:

Can u do DHB cycle alone ?

Probably not advisable, as DHB does not aromatize, and could therefore potentially crash your estrogen without a testosterone base.

Just a note of caution. I was about to use a Comfort insulin syringe today, when I noticed my fingers covered in ink. It was from defective Comfort syringes, as the ink from the measurement labels was wiping off with light contact, creating a dangerous, unsanitary injection environment. 

2 minutes ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

Sheesh, where to start lol.

I have an autoimmune disease that has defied 100% diagnosis so the specialists all just hung Fibromyalgia/Chronic Fatigue/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis depending on which one of the many you talk to. Widespread pain, fatigue, brain fog, like having the flu and the worst moouth full of toothaches you could ever imagine 24/7! I have degenerative spine issues that include Stenosis, Degenerative Disc Disease, Chronic Inflammation/Radiculopathy involving the Sciatic Nerve, Lumbar/Sacrum herniation, basically  from C to S there isn't anywhere left of my spine that is healthy. Some of it is operable with poor expectation for improvment and other parts not at all so the only real mitigation is strenghtening of the core muscles surrounding to bolster. I have 2 tumors at T4 that just showed up about 6 months ago I guess and we are watching them currently but they'l have to open me up to make sure they aren't cancerous in the not too distant future. Right now they are just in a stupid place putting presure and causing me no end of discomfort. Neuropathy, that although identified by one of the top people in the country, the origin is unknown although based on the parts of my body involved, I'm pretty sure it stems from my rather unpleasant childhood, The tests they use to identify this showed a 30% loss of neuro communication in my left arm and around 20 in my right. It manifests in pain and my hands just doing random shit like opening up while I'm holding things lol, I have a lot of platic cups that I drink out of now hehehehe. Severe arthritis in my hands/feet to top it off.

The real kicker is that all of this manifested about 12 years ago, after the auto immune disease, and progressed frighteningly fast to the point where I was being tested for MS because there was a real fear thats what was happening. They still haven't ruled that out but they'll have to knock me the F out before they ever get me to co-operate for another spinal tap/puncture to test.

My old Doc was staying on top of it with me, as best we can, meaning medication to knock down the pain and stims to help with the fatigue. Thank heavens lol that I am severely ADHD (entire life) so it was easy to get scripted and stay on the stim meds lol...When the wife and I moved 2 years ago I lost my doc and for 6 months had no doc and no meds which is when I found out exactly what life looks like without those things. I ended up in the hospital unable to walk, or even wipe my own arse! The hospital peeps worked like crazy to find me a doc that would take me on because of my issues and meds and thats where the road back to what i now consider normal started. That was like 18 months ago and I'm now about 2 or 3 months I think from being back to where I was before we moved. all things considered if everything is kept on top of as it worsens, life is pretty good excpet for mornings, lol...they truly suck after  being stationary all night and pain meds wearing off the first hour of my day isn't very pleasant but after that not so bad, there are people worse off so i count my blessings!

For some reason, if all of that wasn't enough, my hormones went all out of whack, likely due to the autoimmune disease and the meds I take effect them as well so that's how I ended up here, while in my search for answers on how to deal with that part of things myself after my new doc completely unexpectedly refused to continue my Test supplementation, and trying to see an Endo was going to take almost a year for the referral. Obviously I couldnt wait that long lol...

Anyway, like I said, after being an ox all my life I was literally blindsided by all of this and it completely changed my world. Then after the move almost ended it. But I have an awesome woman, who is my rock, and between her and a ton of hard work/stubborness lol...I made it through....and this family here has been a huge part of it! Almost back to normal but again I have to say, like I do to myself every single day, there are those who are so much worse off so I need to be thankful for my blessings and the fact that life is as good as it is!

 

Well kudos to you. You got hit really hard, and managed to fight your way back.

2 minutes ago, Francis "Frank" Castle said:

Cool. I'm not much older than you at 54 and in this day and age we are expected to keep up for a few years yet lol so it's important to stay on top of this stuff. Let us know how you make out man :{)=

What kind of health problems were you experiencing Frank, if you don't mind sharing?

On 9/24/2019 at 1:55 PM, MikeTheMover said:

I feel only slightly different from b4 & have been experiencing what I believe is test flu after each injection ( slight fever, chills & zero energy for about 24 hours) is this something I should be concerned about ? Will I feel this way after every injection ? Should I be seeing or feeling anything by now ? I’ve searched the internet for info on others exp but haven’t found very much info so I’m hoping someone here could help me with their experiences with Test Cyp. Don’t be afraid to be brutally honest with me if I’m totally doing things wrong as I’m not a overly sensitive person & ive always been one to follow the advice of others who have a lot more exp than me. Thank you in advance to anyone who can offer up some advice.

Yes, you should be concerned...you shouldn't be experiencing those symptoms. You should consider cease using the gear that you have. When you're starting out, it might help to have a test base from a few sources, in case one might be bogus. Stan Efferding reported using 300 mg/wk of test prop...it should be more than enough to get you started. It hits the bloodstream faster, which might be useful for determining quality, and to see how your body reacts.

6 hours ago, Sorbate said:

I inject in the area you drew around, more towards the front of it, and that spot is like butter, no pip and you dint even feel it go in.

biggest thing is to nit inject too far forward, did that twice, bruising and bad pip.

I agree, that's a go to spot. The more anterior glute medial area can get pretty rigid from hip abduction/spreading the floor during heavy squats.